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Post by Karnak on Nov 5, 2014 23:13:31 GMT -6
But the damn thing takes up too much space! Once it quits raining I'll get the sandblaster out… then get with fabing some motor mounts and go from there.   |
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Post by Karnak on Nov 15, 2014 1:14:12 GMT -6
Well I decided to start with the rear of the chassis instead of the motor mounts… I mocked up the rear springs the last two nights… only spent a few hours out in the shop. I bought some front spring mounts from A&A… they are a little light for my tastes @ .125 but a couple gussets should take care of that. I also have to gusset the new chunk of tube that the springs mount to in front… it's on my list. From the looks of it the spring I have more arch on the right spring than the one on the left. I have a bunch of leaves that I can use to make up a spring just for mock up. I also have around six others to choose from… if I have the $$$ I'll start the season with some new ones then go from there. I also slid a chunk of steering shaft into the car and attached the wheel… I'm going to have to see if I can actually fit into this car. Looks pretty tight to me. Diet time I guess. |
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Post by oldegreezer on Nov 15, 2014 15:27:21 GMT -6
Looking good. Remember distance between drivers side and passenger side front mounts should be less than rear mounts. Run a 1" adjustable lowering block on right spring so you can put some rear steer in car if needed. Also remember angle shims if needed to set pinion angle unless you take that into consideration when welding spring mounts to axle tubes. Or you could use clamp mounts, just remember to tack weld them when you get everything where you want. =#01H
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Post by Karnak on Nov 15, 2014 19:43:49 GMT -6
I've been think about that 'toe'd-in' spring set-up. I believe Camaros have that stock from the factory. I've never done that… I hear some guys like to just do that on the right spring… right now they are parallel. This car was crashed on the right side and the right lower rail was replaced but the car was never raced after that. Don't know how it was set-up back then… I might give the PO a call. I never have been able to get the original builder to reply to my questions… he's out of the building biz but not out of racing.
What do you like about having them toe'd in?
I have a couple adjustable lowering blocks and also have a clamp-type spring mount.
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Post by oldegreezer on Nov 16, 2014 0:57:40 GMT -6
Don't really know the reason for doing the mounts that way. Was always told that was the right way. Never had one with springs parallel. I'm gleening this stuff from old notebooks I kept when racing leafspring stockcars. Probably oldschool so others might have newer opinions. Here's some more of my notes that might help tho you probably know most. Use as little thickness as you can on lowering blocks as it changes axle wrap. If using 3 hole front mounts use middle hole for base setup. Moving right side up will loosen car on entry, down will tighten. Have rear spring eye at least 5" higher then front, but no more then 9". Remember you will be using rear eye placement to set ride height. Easy to do if using shakels, more critical if using sliders. If getting new steel leafsprings get the arch at least 1" more then you want. When spring takes it's set, after a couple races, you will lose at least 1". If building your own leafs, sand them down smooth between leafs and use grease between them and wrap loosely with duct tape to keep grit out. I always fabricated struts to put on each side between upper frame rail and rear housing to use when trailering and between races. Saves your springs a little workout. Just remember to take them out before hot lapping. L.O.L. If using sliders mark where eye position is after they take there set. When you notice they have moved back 1 to 2" it's time for new springs cuz they loosin their arch. Leave u-bolts loose on housing when mounting leafs in car. Helps with the binding problem. Just remember to tighten them. Generally you need more rear weight percentage on a leaf car. I always ran L.R. bite using the cigarrete pack method. Think about that when positioning rear mounts. I'll also throw this at you= remember when building motor mounts, don't forget motor needs to angle down at back. Also don't run driveshaft straight, side to side between tranny and rear yoke. A little to the right on rear works good on leaf cars. Just things to think about during your build. Hope I didn't bore you =01H |
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Post by Karnak on Nov 16, 2014 8:49:27 GMT -6
Don't really know the reason for doing the mounts that way. Was always told that was the right way. Never had one with springs parallel. I'm gleening this stuff from old notebooks I kept when racing leafspring stockcars. Probably oldschool so others might have newer opinions. Here's some more of my notes that might help tho you probably know most. Use as little thickness as you can on lowering blocks as it changes axle wrap. If using 3 hole front mounts use middle hole for base setup. Moving right side up will loosen car on entry, down will tighten. Have rear spring eye at least 5" higher then front. Remember you will be using rear eye placement to set ride height. Easy to do if using shakels, more critical if using sliders. If getting new steel leafsprings get the arch at least 1" more then you want. When spring takes it's set, after a couple races, you will lose at least 1". If building your own leafs, sand them down smooth between leafs and use grease between them and wrap loosely with duct tape to keep grit out. I always fabricated struts to put on each side between upper frame rail and rear housing to use when trailering and between races. Saves your springs a little workout. Just remember to take them out before hot lapping. L.O.L. If using sliders mark where eye position is after they take there set. When you notice they have moved back 1 to 2" it's time for new springs cuz they loosin their arch. Leave u-bolts loose on housing when mounting leafs in car. Helps with the binding problem. Just remember to tighten them. Generally you need more rear weight percentage on a leaf car. I always ran L.R. bite using the cigarrete pack method. Think about that when positioning rear mounts. I'll also throw this at you= remember when building motor mounts, don't forget motor needs to angle down at back. Also don't run driveshaft straight, side to side between tranny and rear yoke. A little to the right on rear works good on leaf cars. Just things to think about during your build. Hope I didn't bore you =01H Plenty of good info Geezer. This car is set-up for shackles but I got one slider with it. I'll stick with shackles at first just to keep it simple. Might try toeing in the right side… some guys claim to get more side bite with that deal. I see a few leaf cars being hauled with a 'jack stand' (for lack of a better term) under the chassis to keep the car from bouncing on the springs while being trailered… good idea. Landrum also sez to secure the car with tire straps rather than chaining it to the frame… more good advice. Clean spring leaves are often overlooked… rust will cause a bind as you know. Back when plenty of dirt late models ran leafs I remember some guys having old style 'gaiters' on their springs like the cars from the teen's and 20's had… leather coverings to keep the lube in and the dirt out. Luckily I have a good old fashioned spring shop available to build, re-build or re-arch anything I want. I saw a recent post on one forum that sez this driver runs a 10" arch left rear spring with the front hole way up on the frame. He sez it acts like a 'bar car' and really gives the car drive off the corner. Something to think about. That goes against everything I used to believe about these springs but so many new ideas have come about in recent years that conventional wisdom can just about be tossed out the window. I used to set up my cars with the front eye below the centerline of the axle to get more anti-squat in the rear. look at any pick-up today and that's how they are set up. The thinking was if the front eye was high the car wouldn't have any traction… it would just act like a spring and not help the car drive. It seemed to work… The only coil car I've ever run was my 80's era IMCA mod… back when many guys ran stock four links. All of my other Fords were always stock leafs (except my Torino which had Chrysler springs like this car). This will be a fun adventure for me... |
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Post by confused on Nov 16, 2014 10:03:07 GMT -6
The "toe in" helps to control the side to side movement. Leafs don't generally use a panhard/j-bar for lateral location.
Oldgeezer has some very good advice here for leaf cars. When you install the motor mounts, place a level on the carburetor mounting face of the intake. That will give you the angle that is needed.
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Post by Karnak on Nov 16, 2014 12:47:48 GMT -6
I found this today…
REVERSE-CANT REAR LEAF SPRINGS
Question...
What would the effect be if the leaf springs in a road racing vehicle were to have the cant or angle of the leaf springs reversed? ... i.e. The springs are normally closer together at the front pivot point than the rear pivot ....It is my understanding that that the leaf from the front pivot to axle simply acts as a control arm?
Answer...
With respect to torque reaction, the action of the spring is more complex than just the front half acting as a control arm. In top view, as regards deflection steer with lateral force, the system does tend to mainly yield laterally at the rear portion of the spring and the shackle. As a crude approximation, the axle pivots around an instant center found by projecting the top view centerlines of the springs.
If, as is common, that instant center is ahead of the axle, the system tends to have deflection oversteer: the deflection points the rear wheels out of the turn. If the springs cant out at the front, we get deflection understeer instead.
This could be a good thing. In general, it's better to have deflection understeer in a car than deflection oversteer.
One often sees the view expressed that canting the springs increases the lateral rigidity of the system. I think that would be true if some magic force kept the axle from steering with lateral deflection. But since there is nothing preventing the axle from steering except the springs, within any practical angles, with the springs canted the system still deflects, and we get some deflection steer when it happens.
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Post by Karnak on Nov 16, 2014 14:42:46 GMT -6
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Post by oldegreezer on Nov 16, 2014 22:48:49 GMT -6
Good landrum site. I will edit my above post to == rear spring eye at least 5" higher then front, but no more than 9". Remember when reading about road racing cars that they are set up to make left and right handed turns so their setups are a compromise. We hopefully only turn left. Turning right sucks because sometimes they put a wall there. L.O.L. Putting the front eye up real high sounds interesting but I wonder how low the rear mount would have to be, or shackle length to obtain ride height. I'd have to research a couple  ???s. Proper shackle angles, lengths, right side,left side and big arch on one side means different length springs, good or bad ? Anyway, if you have the time, cuz momma won't let you go out to the shop by yourself anymore, after the grinder mishap, just kidding, I Bing,ed Chrysler kit car and got a bunch of results. Might be some good reading there. Also, while going thru my old racing notebooks I came across the chassis blueprints that came with my Howe leafspring dirt car I used to have. Have to look them over as I remember it was a pretty good car, tho I thought the Sanger car I had later was better. Old school stuff for sure but it brings back memories. Ran a 434 B.B. Chevy in those cars. My how times have changed. I better get off here and throw another log on the fire, as you guys up north forgot to close the border. And they say we don't import anything from Canada. Yeah, right. =#01H |
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Post by Karnak on Nov 17, 2014 16:46:21 GMT -6
Here's what the typical Super Stock rear suspension looks like… pretty simple. Attachments:
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Post by confused on Nov 18, 2014 9:04:31 GMT -6
Basic swing arm 3 link. A very stable set up.
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Post by Karnak on Dec 30, 2014 21:20:58 GMT -6
Finally got back to working on the car.
Spent some time tonite cleaning up the LF spring pocket in prep for welding in the jack bolt and plate. I'll have to ream out the top BJ mount to fit the Mopar screw-in ball joints I'm using… Right Foot Performance is 40 minutes away and they do it while I wait.. Going to have them look at a couple of the QA1 shocks I recently acquired… got one with a bent shaft and a couple with some weird valveings.
Next up is the RF spring pocket work then off to the rear axle and springs.
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Post by oldegreezer on Dec 31, 2014 21:30:33 GMT -6
Good to hear others are putting in time in the shop. I know a lot of others are doing likewise. Seems the more we do the more we find we have to do. Today I found I'll have to change my underslung bars so my quickchange will fit! Allways something. Have got my new body gutted and old body took off. I'm having fun now but occasionally have to remind myself the real fun comes in the spring when we get these projects on the track . =#01H
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Post by Karnak on Jan 1, 2015 17:39:12 GMT -6
Good to hear others are putting in time in the shop. I know a lot of others are doing likewise. Seems the more we do the more we find we have to do. Today I found I'll have to change my underslung bars so my quickchange will fit! Allways something. Have got my new body gutted and old body took off. I'm having fun now but occasionally have to remind myself the real fun comes in the spring when we get these projects on the track . =#01H Are you running an IMCA Stock Car? |
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Post by oldegreezer on Jan 1, 2015 22:57:29 GMT -6
No IMCA for me. It would take me until spring to read and comprehend the rule book. It's vintage stock car for me. 68 Falcon body on 3 link mod frame. =#01H
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Post by Karnak on Jan 3, 2015 9:22:42 GMT -6
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Post by Karnak on Jan 4, 2015 23:00:07 GMT -6
Upon further review I found the right side of the stub is up about 1 1/2"… I'm going to ask my local race friendly frame shop operator to come over and take a look.
This car took a hit on the right side and the frame rail was replaced. But I think the 2X3 piece of frame kick up that connects the rail with the stub may have been cut to the wrong angle and it's got the stub sitting at an angle that put's the stub going uphill… not sure. There also may be issues with the stub… we'll see soon enough.
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Post by Karnak on Jan 13, 2015 23:58:41 GMT -6
Good news… the stub is OK. The table it's on is not… I bought it from a friend when he closed his body shop. One side of the table is 1 1/2" higher than the other. I can get the stub L to R within 3/8"… good enough for government work.
Did a little more on the front end this week… film at 11.
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Post by Karnak on Jan 15, 2015 22:41:50 GMT -6
Working on the spring pockets and weight jacks. I has some problems with my little Hobart 175 tackling the 1/4" plate I welded on top of the stock frame. I think I pushed it past it's duty cycle… the arc started getting funky and the welds show it. We'll try again tomorrow. I trimmed a bit more off the frame to make it look a little cleaner then trimmed the 1/4" plate to fit the frame.    I bought these jack plates from Right Foot Performance last month. They built 'em as I waited… about 15 minutes. I could just use a nut since I plated the frame but I have these in stock so I may as well use 'em.  |
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Post by Karnak on Jan 26, 2015 22:34:49 GMT -6
Here's some Super Stock action from Brownstown Speedway in Indiana. Listen to the winning drivers interview and his plans for this car if it doesn't start getting any faster very soon.
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???s. Proper shackle angles, lengths, right side,left side and big arch on one side means different length springs, good or bad ? Anyway, if you have the time, cuz momma won't let you go out to the shop by yourself anymore, after the grinder mishap, just kidding, I Bing,ed Chrysler kit car and got a bunch of results. Might be some good reading there. Also, while going thru my old racing notebooks I came across the chassis blueprints that came with my Howe leafspring dirt car I used to have. Have to look them over as I remember it was a pretty good car, tho I thought the Sanger car I had later was better. Old school stuff for sure but it brings back memories. Ran a 434 B.B. Chevy in those cars. My how times have changed. I better get off here and throw another log on the fire, as you guys up north forgot to close the border. And they say we don't import anything from Canada. Yeah, right. =#01H 
